A few weeks ago, I was looking up stuff about Loki and other Norse concepts - when I happened upon a blogspot blog with the odd title of “parmandur quettaron”, whatever that means. It appears to be a literary blog set up for self-expression by a 23-year-old named Sam Urfer on his profile. Anyway, it featured a literary essay, “Odin and Loki: A Comparison of Two Tricksters”, which, with little introduction or explanatory by-your-leave, proceeded to say some interesting but harsh things about two of my favourite mythological figures. Which I felt I had to discuss on my own blog, once I finally set a suitable one up - and now I have, I shall.
Well, I would like to say to Mr Urfer - if space permitted on his own blog and if he wouldn’t delete it!! (I did leave him a comment, but by necessity briefer.) It was an interesting piece - but I didn’t really accept the DIRECTION you took your conclusions to. (In fact, I found them unacceptable! From a pagan/pagan-sympathetic point of view, not merely an “asatru“ one or the viewpoint of any specific faith.)
And I kept feeling that there was something behind what you said, Mr Urfer… only not really knowing precisely what it was made this more “sinister” to me than it otherwise would have been…. Well, I can see you’re not a person with any particular sympathy for paganism or heathenry!! But I mean, if you had DECLARED yourself as a Christian, which I think you are - it would have made it all more honest somehow. Sorry. (Well, you are very judgemental yourself!)…This is basically the impression I received from it, upon first reading! (Caricature paraphrase coming up!)
OH DEAR ME!! ODIN AND LOKI ARE BOTH GAY, DECEITFUL MALE WITCHES/WIZARDS!! (Call out the Christian Harry Potter Police!!) ODIN AND LOKI THE 2 QUEER, EFFEMINATE PSYCHOPATHIC WARLOCKS!!!
Big deal. Not. (You do realise, Sam, that in addition to the Christian “Harry Potter” panic which you seem to evoke - I’m using association here - you’re calling up one of the cherished movie stereotypes you can look up on those sites, forget the address for now - that talk about things like “the magic negro”??
The Homosexual Psychopath is apparently another stereotype beloved by Hollywood (see Silence of the Lambs), generally for its “yuk” factor among young males, the stereotype analysis sites say.
Is this one reason why you don’t like Odin and Loki? It’s obvious that you don’t!
It’s not my desire to “attack” Sam Urfer particularly, gentle readers all. It’s just that - well, his essay was thought-provoking - and like other stuff which seems to demand a response - for reasons of justice - it provoked some thoughts, which I shall endeavour to answer/explore here.
My take: It’s no wonder those two gods, Odin and Loki, chief figures of Norse Mythology, both resemble each other.
They *are* both mirror images and both *are* Tricksters - well spotted - I am not denying THAT! And Loki, the Fool, (that’s what he is, you see! As well as Trickster!) is meant to resemble/mirror his King, Odin. ’Twould be a poor Fool who didn’t!
(And if only the moralizing Christian element could be leached from the Eddas, and all or much of their later Christian-influenced content - then we would see Loki as useful, Shakespearian-type (or Ancient Greek type or Hopi Indian type!) Fool to his King. And his society. Pointing out where his king is likely to go wrong. And Loki in particular in the revised sagas would not act so “devilish”. Or be treated thus at the end of the story cycle.
This is the problem that Christian influence on a pagan religion has left both believer and literary critic with. BTW - have you, Sam, ever read “Written in Venom” by Lois Tilton - a 2000 fantasy novel telling the Eddas from Loki’s point of view? I would have done it differently (it’s not exactly Marion Zimmer Bradley, it’s much more concise!)… but it’s a good stab at it, using the material that has been left to us in its “final”, that is to say, Christian-scribed phase.
At first, though, I must say, getting back to the subject of the Parmandur blog… I was wondering what sort of person wrote it! I read it initially on a mobile phone, so it was difficult to get to the profile details, though that didn’t help me, later. I must say, though I now think you are a Christian, at first I wondered whether you were one of those types that were more prevalent in the 19th century - a “rationalist” who goes around trying to debunk religions in general, and the main technique is to cite passages from the Bible, or Eddas, or whatever, which, when taken out of context in particular, present the relevant protagonists in the WORST possible lights, as “psychopaths” as we might now call them? (I think the most modern term for it is “sociopath”, or rather, “anti-social personality disorder”.)
Or how about war criminals?? David and Joshua the war criminals? Odin the war criminal??Yeah, that’s what they might be called today. Not very relevant in the context of the time though, for there was no such thing. There was no Geneva convention or rules of engagement and the rules we have nowadays for war didn’t exist, of course.
Then I soon noticed: You’re doing a bit of a “straw man”, or a “bait and switch” here, call it what you will. Because into a medieval Icelandic argument (the Lokasenna) concerning two (one assumes) fairly imaginary characters, who are arguing about niceties in concepts such as sexual honour (ergi) and magic - you immediately drag in the blanket term “psychopath”, which is a 20th-century (extra-medieval) definition, which covers all sorts of things which we now find objectionable, which they wouldn’t (necessarily!) have then!
Contrariwise, nowadays we (I hope) find all sorts of things, particularly sexual behaviours and homosexuality in particular, and belief systems/religious/magical practices - to be no big deal and a matter of personal choice, which more traditional and basically patriarchal (still, there are different types of patriarchy) societies didn’t. (Well, they sometimes didn’t!)
And I’m sorry, but you can’t really throw accusations of “psychopathy” and “total selfishness” at Odin and Loki both, without examining the context and the results of their behaviours in the stories. Pertaining to each god. What pray does Loki profit out of his “terrible selfishness”? He gets to be a member of the Aesir. He gets to stay in the tribe of his choice. That’s all he gets. Big criminal payoff, I must say!! Hmm, today’s Wall Street would really do well out of copying him…..
(Oh, and he gets a lot of sexual pleasure… how terrible! And some… interesting… even if also what would still be to a man today rather embarrassing experiences - as comedy shows/movies still tell us - of sex change, male pregnancy, etc! Sounds like a Dark Age sitcom! And if Loki were alive today… are you, Loki?? He’d be a natural for US talk TV!!! Watch out, watch out - he’s coming your way!)
Hmm. Well, I for one, coincidentally being a socialist as well as a pagan/heathen, think that *real* criminals (namely, aka, capitalists, in so many modern instances!) are out for FAR bigger payoffs than that. Than anything garnered by either Odin or his Fool, Loki.
As for Odin - what is his context/payoff? Well. He’s a king, a philosopher-poet-king to boot, a warrior and a tribal leader, like the ruling class of his day. (When the sagas/eddas were written.) He has to defend his tribe against incursions from others, which he manages to do wonderfully well, until the Ragnarok.
And - this being religion - there is also the implication/understanding, that Odin and the rest of the gods are defending the cosmos from beings hostile to a) Life b) Intelligence (particularly human.)
Loki is Odin’s partner in this. (I disagree with your contention that Loki is, like a lot of Jotuns (giants) hostile to humans. He isn’t. (At least, he doesn’t WISH to be. If he is - dragged into the Ragnarok - it is malgre lui!! Now personally I think that Sam Urfer and all Loki detractors should read *this* little web contribution about the fellow: Well, maybe not… I’ve just found it’s been deleted! Shame, really. It was linking Loki and modern politics, it was on newsvine.com, and called The Making of Loki the Lawless Immigrant. Now that really WAS relevant - and some fool has deleted it for, I daresay, “current political pressure” reasons! Shame!)
Loki helps humanity too - like most Tricksters, he is included in the creation myth. (Not the creation of the Cosmos one - they don’t exactly have one… only how it was changed by Odin son of Bor and the other gods. The “creation of humankind” one is the one involving Loki (also known as Lodur - yes, it’s him!), Odin and Hoenir.
There is also a saga recorded in 18th-century Faroe Islands lore, based on earlier folklore, called the Loka Tattur, where he does indeed come to the aid of humans (a farmer and his son) who call on the god, after the other two of the original all-male Trinity, Odin and Hoenir, have been called and wanting - for they can only help so far. But Loki is the most creative, has the best ideas and refuses to give up. Thus he saves the day and is embraced by the farmer and his family, who hail him as the best of all the gods! (Cunning and wit definitely have their place!)
And know what?? I think so too! (I would, I’m a Lokean!) And this little tale shows that in the most heathen, outlying areas, Loki was still honoured and loved as he would have been in the pre-Christian ear, for centuries past medieval times.
So what does everybody reckon, then? Are Tricksters always the big psychopaths?? Or are they the CREATIVE souls, who can get us out of trouble/problems/danger? As well as get us into them?? Eh?Loki is the one for me. (Sure, I’m a Lokean. Can’t help it as I’ve said in a previous post. No-one should really “choose” to be a follower of Loki - you should not be able to be anything else!!)
But I don’t see the point of attacking Odin, particularly in the manner Mr Urfer has in his post. Odin is only trying to do the best for his tribe, his entire world, his entire world view, and the humans who make up part of it! Rather than just his “immediate family” as Sam rather narrowly puts it.
I only wish he hadn’t fallen out with - and later so cruelly treated - Loki. You don’t say what was done to Loki, do you, Sam - and it wasn’t just the serpent-venom thing and binding that most people know about! There were one or two accompanying, even nastier factors. I don’t know if it was pagans that thought these up or Christians. I might cover it in a later post..
I suppose it is because Loki and Odin are so alike that they fall out. Also, I believe that Odin is *afraid* of Loki. He’s a dark horse! But - again it’s a shame - for in the Eddas handed down to us, Loki in fact makes NO Satan-like grab for power or the throne of Asgard! That’s only in Marvel comics!!
But anyway, Sam, re Odin: Tell me - how well do YOU think YOU would do, at being God??That’s why it’s so difficult for humans to conceive of a God in humanlike terms, and still have Him all “perfect”.
Anyway, that’s enough for one post.
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Hm, I wish Sam Urfer had responded to my comment. Wonder why he only kept up the Parmandur blog for little more than a year, and ended it by the end of 2008. (I always wondered what the title meant - maybe it's Elvish!)
“Then there is no place in God for the poet’s falsehood” - Plato, The Republic, Book II
"Parmandur Quettaron" is Elvish (Quenya, specifically) for "Words of the Book-Lover". "Auta i Lome" means "The night is passing!" which was the battle cry of Húrin Thalion during the Nírnaeth Arnoediad.
I wrote the essay you link for Scandinavian Mythology with John Lindow at UC Berkeley a number of years ago. At the time, I was generically Protestant, but not sure what the deal is. Now I am devoutly Catholic (you can read the story in my other blog, which my name links to). I agree with Plato, the great pagan philosopher, that the stories told about the gods are rather disgusting, and the myths of the Norse are a good example.
Contrary to your assertions, the general consensus is that Loki was never worshiped as a god along with the other Asgard, as there are no place names or references to him outside the Edda. Folk tales from the 18th century are suspect for being formed out of the Edda, just as much as the Edda is suspect for Snorri's Christian paradigm.
I'm not concerned with Odin and Loki's sexual shenanigans, though the Norse were. The problem is more their sociopathic behavior unfitting for gods. Even if I were of a pagan persuasion, Platonism is where it's at.
As the great Hjalti Skeggjason said at the Althing:
I dare mock the gods.
I believe that Freyja is a bitch,
And that Odin in a dog,
Or else the other way around.
Ok - Well, thanks for commenting at last, Sam! I will definitely be checking out your other blog! Thanks also for the Elvish translations. I wondered if that was the language in question, but know of no Elvish translation site to look it up on (do you?) Googling the phrase at the time produced no real results apart from your own blog. So, you're a big Tolkien fan, are you? And a Catholic now too, just like your literary hero. You must take it seriously though: so you're an Elvish *speaker*? Can't say I've ever been motivated enough to learn an *invented* language: such as Elvish (or Klingon!) Though I've thought about Esperanto, especially since finding out that sf writer Harry Harrison (is he still alive? Haven't checked recently) learned it as an instant bonding technique - a "trick" if you will - oh I do like tricks! (See - Harrison believes in cunning, as something with a potentially positive side, or else his Stainless Steel Rat would be evil, and he's *not*! He's also very popular, as many picaresque
characters are! And Christians like the character too.) BTW sorry my comments are all coming in little chunks: I'm doing this from a mobile phone; the character load is limited and it doesn't parse very well. And I'm glad you took the trouble to respond Sam: better late than never! I guess you don't check that old blog much any more? Interestingly, I'm not the only one to notice/link it, in a rather strange coincidence I came across just now (when I was looking up a writer whose popular contributions in this field I was sure you were unaware of - but there your blog appeared!) which I will surely give the details of to you and other readers of this blog quite soon! Too good to rush. And I have to contact the other site. Well, when I first put this blog up I was so eager for comments (and response), I checked every day, then at least twice a week for a few months, then once or twice a month for about a year.. finally, towards the tail end of 2009, I gave up, I thought nobody'd noticed it, least of all you,
and like a couple of weeks after I'd stopped looking - there came your response! We're like two people who miss each other at a rendez-vous. Anyway I hadn't been updating the blog regularly; nor had I been promoting it to my chosen Lokeans group (where I post occasionally under another name) because of other salmon to fry! Well you really did open up a few further cans of worms! But first a little more about myself and a circuit around the subject of fictional Tricksters. I know that some Christians have no problems with eg. Harrison's Rat; for a Christian-oriented sf/fantasy buff at my old school liked him! (This was in Newquay, GB, in the 1980s, to aid you in placing/dating me!) Also you'll be glad to know I'm a Tolkien lover, though hardly obsessive! I've made quite a few posts on the Tolkien sections of imdb.com, under yet another handle! I've also read a lot of CS Lewis, so I'm hardly unsympathetic to Christianity, just wanting to protect smaller faiths from its more imperialistic aspects. You may be
interested to know that in his youth, Lewis was quite sympathetic to Loki, and even composed a long epic poem about him! Re Tolkien: well I believe that although JRR probably had many of the same problems with it as you do, cf the cruel elements, he was also a great fan of Norse myth, as a man steeped so deeply in early medieval culture would be! According to a useful work of recent scholarship which I shall reveal by &by, he was very much indebted to Norse myth, as were a lot of other people and stories. (For example, all the dwarf names in The Hobbit are taken from the Elder Edda.) Lots of other things besides. For instance, on the theme of our "two Tricksters", I have independently come to the conclusion, stated previously by me on imdb, that Gandalf and Bilbo Baggins are based on none other than - Odin and Loki! And TH with its tale of treasure is obviously more pagan in theme than LOTR. But think about it: these two archetypes; "burglar" (ie, thief) Bilbo, and the mysterious wizard -
who do those remind you of, from the old tales - precisely! I further feel that Tolkien took it upon himself to humanize /Christianize Gandalf, and probably Bilbo too, so they wouldn't have those faults which grate against the civilized reader! Tolkien admits in letters the Odin-Gandalf connection. _That's that done! Furthermore, you might be interested in the rather Loki-ish young Trickster Aiken Drum, from fellow Catholic Julian May's Saga of the Exiles sf series. But that's more based on Celtic mythology so not strictly relevant. But - Aiken's not "evil", either. (So what makes you think Loki is?) Yeah. You've raised up several cans of worms to the surface, with your series of questionable assumptions, which will take me several new blog posts to deal with - I don't mind, just wish I had a better interface! Oh and I *don't* see the point of your shrill Plato-quoting tone: it's no good girding on your Christian armour to ride against me; I can't be converted, nor do I wish to convert you! That straight?!
(Another point: in case you, Sam, or other blog viewers may wonder how I combine my own personal socialism with a focus on this mythology and culture, I have a famed English precedent: William Morris, who I trust Americans have heard of?) Yes indeed! And I don't know why you're getting ants in your pants over the morals of pagan gods, Sam, considering all the smiting yours gets up to! I think you just don't like Tricksters; though I've shown you to what good use modern writers put them. (And they don't include Hannibal Lecter, who is what *most* readers would conceive of as "psychopathic"!) Yeah. And when I finally do post a link to all this on my lokeans group &a couple other heathen places - don't blame me if you get internet hate mail! You've been very confrontational. You would be in for it too if you put "your god is a dog" on a Muslim site, even if you could prove an Arab said it! Only difference is, neo-Heathens aren't terrorists ('less you count the supremacists and they're not big literature fans!)
I've always thought one of the more interesting things about polytheistic mythologies was that the pagan gods aren't perfect. They have their own little quirks, and may behave well or - um - less well depending on circumstances and mood. It certainly makes for interesting stories.
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